Looking for a country to make a high rentability real estate investment

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flyingadventures662

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I've put 100K in a property in Spain 2 years ago and currently every month I get roughly 900 EUR pure net income after all taxes and expenses.



I'm very happy with the numbers and % rentability of this investment but very unhappy with some things related to Spain and the customer service I get for the management. (No okupas problem, we rent rooms so the money flow is quite stable and really no issues with that).



I'm looking to make a similar investment but in another country where I like generally the things more.



I know it's hard to achieve that ROI, or slightly worse ROI on the expense of getting excellent service.



But from my research if possible anywhere, I could see Batumi in Georgia, Dubai, or probably Cyprus.



I have zero experience in these countries so I'd appreciate if anyone has personal experience or at least has done some research and can quote precise numbers, and suggest contacts for local management. Or of course, suggestions for other countries.



Many thanks.
 
Can you detail where more did you buy in Spain and which type of flat and rental (short lets, by month, yearly etc..)
 
Sounds like you're doing well in Spain, but I get why you want better service.



Batumi, Georgia could be a good choice, property prices are still low, and the rental yields are decent.



Dubai is great for luxury properties but can be expensive, and Cyprus is also a solid option with good tax advantages.



Personally, I’ve heard good things about property management in Cyprus.



You might want to check out local agencies in those places to get better insights!
 
happyjohn said:






Sounds like you're doing well in Spain, but I get why you want better service.



Batumi, Georgia could be a good choice, property prices are still low, and the rental yields are decent.



Dubai is great for luxury properties but can be expensive, and Cyprus is also a solid option with good tax advantages.



Personally, I’ve heard good things about property management in Cyprus.



You might want to check out local agencies in those places to get better insights!

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Batumi has never really taken off despite being talked about for the past 10 years+, and in my opinion, it's VERY seasonal. Some properties in Dubai (or Abu Dhabi) are fine. I’d also add Budapest in Europe. And Bali (if the focus is on yield).
 
toums said:






Can you detail where more did you buy in Spain and which type of flat and rental (short lets, by month, yearly etc..)

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Alicante, huge apartment, long-term (non-touristical) room rental for minimum a few months. 400-500 per room so 1400 cca entire apartment.



But now you can't get this, price to buy have gone up 20-40% depending on the area so the renatbility is lower.



It was a bargain when we bought it I must admit.



From what I know in the smaller towns or even villages the rentability should be still ridiculously high even now but again the biggest question is whom you will find locally to manage it for you.



2 years ago you were able to buy 3 apartments for ~100K in one small town nearby and rent to students again per room for super high yield - if you find someone local to trust.
 
happyjohn said:






Sounds like you're doing well in Spain, but I get why you want better service.



Batumi, Georgia could be a good choice, property prices are still low, and the rental yields are decent.



Dubai is great for luxury properties but can be expensive, and Cyprus is also a solid option with good tax advantages.



Personally, I’ve heard good things about property management in Cyprus.



You might want to check out local agencies in those places to get better insights!

Click to expand...

Many thanks I may go a bit higher let's say 120K-150K for more security just looking for something good.



Is Dubai more "reliable" for that than Georgia in your opinion and do you have an idea how these yields can be achieved: long term, rooms, touristical, etc...?
 
toums said:






Batumi has never really taken off despite being talked about for the past 10 years+, and in my opinion, it's VERY seasonal. Some properties in Dubai (or Abu Dhabi) are fine. I’d also add Budapest in Europe. And Bali (if the focus is on yield).

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Thanks



You surprise me with Budapest, if you put 100K in apartment there, what kind of rent and what % yield can you get, isn't it super low?



How about Tbilisi if it's less seasonal than Batumi?



Also in Dubai can you quote precise numbers: put X money to buy apartment Y, rent on Z type of rental to get how much per month after all expenses?
 
ROI is great because the risk of Okupas is included in the rental market pricing. Even if you sell it with a return, and cash out profits (after taxes), you'll struggle to get anywhere near that return without more/different risks.



I say this as somebody who is allergic to keeping even 1 cent in Spain. Move your investment but be willing to accept lower ROI, or just deal with investing in a socialist country.
 
luap said:






ROI is great because the risk of Okupas is included in the rental market pricing. Even if you sell it with a return, and cash out profits (after taxes), you'll struggle to get anywhere near that return without more/different risks.



I say this as somebody who is allergic to keeping even 1 cent in Spain. Move your investment but be willing to accept lower ROI, or just deal with investing in a socialist country.

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By the way there is practically zero risk of okupas if you rent rooms.



I have spent a lot of time in Spain and I have met many people from there, both investors and "casual people".



While okupas are risk if you rent the entire property to one person/family that "encapsulates" themselves alone inside, I have asked a lot and I have never ever to this date heard about a single case of okupas if you rent independent rooms to different people who live together in a shared apartment. Also from the experience of the people who manage our apartment and I guess tens of others apartments during many years.



With that being said I'm completely open to what you say and tha's my goal, even if I get a bit lower ROI, I would go somewhre else.



Do you have specific suggestions which come at least close to this ROI numbers?
 
You make 10% NET after all costs? That's pretty amazing.



I would advise in general, stick to your circle of competence.



If you can get 10% net, keep doing what you're doing. It's a lot harder to manage remotely and hope that mgmt companies don't steal from you. Also I have heard nothing but bad things about the quality of real estate in Dubai, Cyprus. Batumi is apparently a seaside resort so I guess during the winter expect it to be dead.



In general I love Charlie Munger's advice: "I'm smart in spots and I stay near these spots"



EDIT: OK now that I've read the rest of your posts it's clear that it's mostly because you bought it as a bargain and you're unlikely to get similar ROIs now...
 
You won't like the answer but #1 in real estate currently in my eyes is Russia
 
Frankie said:






You make 10% NET after all costs? That's pretty amazing.



I would advise in general, stick to your circle of competence.



If you can get 10% net, keep doing what you're doing. It's a lot harder to manage remotely and hope that mgmt companies don't steal from you. Also I have heard nothing but bad things about the quality of real estate in Dubai, Cyprus. Batumi is apparently a seaside resort so I guess during the winter expect it to be dead.



In general I love Charlie Munger's advice: "I'm smart in spots and I stay near these spots"



EDIT: OK now that I've read the rest of your posts it's clear that it's mostly because you bought it as a bargain and you're unlikely to get similar ROIs now...

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"It's a lot harder to manage remotely " - I DO manage remotely. That's what I don;t like the management people.



Could you please tell me what do you mean by "quality" of the real estate in Dubai?



I'm pretty happy to put even 150K and get 1K net after that, from what I read it should be doable there?
 
369 said:






You won't like the answer but #1 in real estate currently in my eyes is Russia

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Can you throw some exact numbers please?



I'm coming from pretty clear expectations and I want to compare



Like put X in property get Y net per month after all tax and expenses by Z model of renting?
 
Spain is the best country to chill out, retire in and enjoy life if you don't need money



And the worst country if you want to do any meaningful business which implies serious attitude and responsibility



I guess that's why I'm looking somewhere else
 
Why do you only look at Europe, which is already used up, as well as all sorts of countries like El Salvador or Russia, where there is a war now. Why don't you consider, for example, Asia or Latin America. Look at Thailand, look at Bangkok. Yes, there is nothing to do there with 100 thousand usd, but in terms of profitability and stability, a good apartment in the central business district of Bangkok can easily provide an excellent annual stable income, and is also quite liquid. And this is not a socialist country, there is no war there and most likely there will not be one in the medium term. The country is developing and Bangkok is a super modern metropolis with all the consequences, but the prices are still lower than, for example, in European capitals. Just check some top real estate site.
 
369 said:






You won't like the answer but #1 in real estate currently in my eyes is Russia

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Yes and No. Being on the case at the moment, and keeping tabs with the market in St Petersburg and Moscow, both on the resale and the new development markets, have just reached a couple of interesting deals with a potential 7% net yield. Nothing to write home about. And believe me, I've done (already) a quite extensive due diligence and spoken to many RE firms thanks to my ability to communicate in the language and various ties to the country. Best options if you have no interest whatsoever in using the property is go for the newly-built small 25-35 sqm studios which offer the best net yield. In my case, as I'm looking at 1-bed at least it is a bit more tricky to get a good deal on new developments, so I'm evaluating the resale market.



That being said, if (and always a big IF) capital appreciation does materialize, that 7% could turn out to be 10-12% annualized in 5 years if/when things settle down geopolitically. But again, that's based on a large assumption I'm not sure everyone's willing to go with.



Hope this helps.



NVO
 
Dreamy said:






Why do you only look at Europe, which is already used up, as well as all sorts of countries like El Salvador or Russia, where there is a war now. Why don't you consider, for example, Asia or Latin America. Look at Thailand, look at Bangkok. Yes, there is nothing to do there with 100 thousand usd, but in terms of profitability and stability, a good apartment in the central business district of Bangkok can easily provide an excellent annual stable income, and is also quite liquid. And this is not a socialist country, there is no war there and most likely there will not be one in the medium term. The country is developing and Bangkok is a super modern metropolis with all the consequences, but the prices are still lower than, for example, in European capitals. Just check some top real estate site.

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I never said I'm considering only Europe, that's why I opened the thread to ask for more suggestions.



I think South America may have similar issues to Spain in terms of reliability but I'm open to Asia.



Do you have particular experience there and can you recommend certain connections?
 
flyingadventures662 said:






I never said I'm considering only Europe, that's why I opened the thread to ask for more suggestions.



I think South America may have similar issues to Spain in terms of reliability but I'm open to Asia.



Do you have particular experience there and can you recommend certain connections?

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You don't need connections, just ask chatgpt what are the best agencies in bangkok, and try sites of all of them. Also ask chatgpt about what are the best districts in Bangkok to have an appartment or long term rent - there are two such kind of districts as I know, all of them near main road and in the center.

Btw most of the agencies can work with USDT if this is interesting for you.
 
If you look at places that are growing fast and are obviously going to be much richer in the future, along with real estate appreciation, Id look at South East Asia. Vietnam, Cambodia, and yes Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines and possibly Malaysia.



Latam America is stagnant, and so is Europe, Japan and the Arab world except the oil rich Gulf countries. (30 years ago though, eastern Europe was a great place to invest in real estate, an apartment in Vilnius bought in 1995 was a slam dunk.)



Then I think safe haven places with low tax that attract capital and high net worth individuals will just keep getting more attractive in the future. So Im bullish on real estate in UAE/Dubai, Singapore, Monaco, Cayman Islands and similar places.



Finally Africa is the only place that has a strong demographic tailwind, but it's not so easy to invest there as a foreigner as property rights and rule of law is weak, and land registry systems are bad. Still worth the risk, and when leadership goes from disastrous to merely bad, one can make a lot of money in African real estate.
 
Cloudbanck said:






If you look at places that are growing fast and are obviously going to be much richer in the future, along with real estate appreciation, Id look at South East Asia. Vietnam, Cambodia, and yes Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines and possibly Malaysia.



Latam America is stagnant, and so is Europe, Japan and the Arab world except the oil rich Gulf countries. (30 years ago though, eastern Europe was a great place to invest in real estate, an apartment in Vilnius bought in 1995 was a slam dunk.)



Then I think safe haven places with low tax that attract capital and high net worth individuals will just keep getting more attractive in the future. So Im bullish on real estate in UAE/Dubai, Singapore, Monaco, Cayman Islands and similar places.



Finally Africa is the only place that has a strong demographic tailwind, but it's not so easy to invest there as a foreigner as property rights and rule of law is weak, and land registry systems are bad. Still worth the risk, and when leadership goes from disastrous to merely bad, one can make a lot of money in African real estate.

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Thanks and also thanks to @Dreamy



Your reply makes sense and actually recently I watched some Youtube videos to look exactly for emerging economies where the real estate itself can appreciate in price itself soon.



And I was looking into Malaysia, Cambodia, Thailand, and also Turkey.



For Dubai I was very pumped about it initially but heard something which makes sense to me that a top may be coming there as it's already too well known for investing and too many people have bought. Normally the biggest value comes before it takes off also like in Spain 7-8 years ago.



Also when I see how ROI (good rent to buy ratio) I want to understand WHY it is so high as normally there is a dodgy reason for that like in Spain but problem is I don't know other markets.



Even though my Spanish investment was a great success s far at least financially, I consider myself a noob and this area and knowing how much research and skill are needed in other investments I realize how I know close to nothing about real estate worldwide outside Spain.



So I'm not sure whom to trust. I watched on Youtube two channels, one is Andrew from Nomad Capitalist who I think deserves credit for discovering Georgia on time but the way he talks and promotes himself makes me very skeptical about his integrity and I read a lot of bad feedback about him.



The other channel was a more humble guy it's called Millionaire Migrate but I have no feedback about him so far.



They both recommended emerging economies and MM was the guy who advised against Dubai now.



All in all I think the biggest challenge is to find someone reliable to do the purchase and management for you abroad which is not an easy task. In Spain alone it took me many months until I found at least someone who is effective, the situation there is a disaster as generally people in Spain are extremely unreliable and most of them don't even reply, let alone how can you count on them to do serious business.



So I can imagine what is the situation in Afrika, probably 10 times worse.



So if you have any contacts to recommend or to hint how you found your local guys for management AND purchase in these remote countries it would be the biggest help and highly appreciated.



In Spain at least there are some guys who buy for you and they negotiate very well or find insane bargains (in Spain 20-30% discount is not uncommon) so it's worth it and also contributes to the final ROI a lot.
 
Nicholas Van Orton said:






Yes and No. Being on the case at the moment, and keeping tabs with the market in St Petersburg and Moscow, both on the resale and the new development markets, have just reached a couple of interesting deals with a potential 7% net yield. Nothing to write home about. And believe me, I've done (already) a quite extensive due diligence and spoken to many RE firms thanks to my ability to communicate in the language and various ties to the country. Best options if you have no interest whatsoever in using the property is go for the newly-built small 25-35 sqm studios which offer the best net yield. In my case, as I'm looking at 1-bed at least it is a bit more tricky to get a good deal on new developments, so I'm evaluating the resale market.



That being said, if (and always a big IF) capital appreciation does materialize, that 7% could turn out to be 10-12% annualized in 5 years if/when things settle down geopolitically. But again, that's based on a large assumption I'm not sure everyone's willing to go with.



Hope this helps.



NVO

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Your current yields are correct however there is one major point which you are missing in the game which makes them so attractive.

The next hyper stagflation event will be a commodity cycle.

Which country is the richest in the world in commodities ?

Which countries currency is linked or backed by Gold ?

Which country is going to sell Gas and Oil for prices at 4 times of current one ?



Its russia and that wealth also will meet its citizens.If citizens get wealthier automaticly the value of local real estate rises.

So i'm not so much interrested in in yields (although they are great if you want to use leverage via debt ) but more interrested in the big spike of real estate prices which when having its run you sell for opportunities in a country which will be highly negativly effected from the hyper stagflation



Also during that time BRICS will have already implemented their new monetary system to be not effected of the western downfall









You can now also add Russia is self sufficient thanks to the longterm sanctions and won't feel the discruption in supply bottleneck
 
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flyingadventures662 said:






I've put 100K in a property in Spain 2 years ago and currently every month I get roughly 900 EUR pure net income after all taxes and expenses.



I'm very happy with the numbers and % rentability of this investment but very unhappy with some things related to Spain and the customer service I get for the management. (No okupas problem, we rent rooms so the money flow is quite stable and really no issues with that).



I'm looking to make a similar investment but in another country where I like generally the things more.



I know it's hard to achieve that ROI, or slightly worse ROI on the expense of getting excellent service.



But from my research if possible anywhere, I could see Batumi in Georgia, Dubai, or probably Cyprus.



I have zero experience in these countries so I'd appreciate if anyone has personal experience or at least has done some research and can quote precise numbers, and suggest contacts for local management. Or of course, suggestions for other countries.



Many thanks.

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You have quite outstanding numbers - congrats! Also congrats on finding somebody at least semi-reliable in Spain



I have some numbers for you. A very nice $130k Tbilisi apartment bought (not by me) last December took couple weeks to find $800/month tenant. The said tenant left in April before end of her 1 year contract (losing deposit) and another couple weeks passed without finding another tenant yet - may have to lower price a bit. It's quite common in Georgia for people to want short-term contracts or leave early. A real estate agent handles this for 10%. The agents are not all angels but generally much better than Spain. 5% income tax. That particular apartment was honestly chosen because it was nice and absolutely no maintenance required at the moment, not to maximize returns - you probably can do slightly better.



Speaking of another apartment in Tbilisi I was getting 7.3% net in 2023 IIRC, didn't rent out in 2024.



Turkey doesn't work (sinking currency, rent controls, impossible to evict a paying tenant even if he pays way below market because of previous two items, unreliable and dishonest agents).



Central Bangkok condos give you 3.5% net if everything goes well. You may get lucky with resales but renting is not worth it.



Can't comment on Dubai, Cyprus or other locations mentioned. Cheers.
 
You can check out this youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/@TheWanderingInvestor/videos



Be careful I think Nomad Capitalist (socialist) is not trustworthy , looks like an online guru, there was a thread about him on the forum as well, someone bought his ebook and said its not informative, maybe chat gpt generated

Montenegro - I think you are late to the party, prices went up a lot already, not much infrastructure in the country

Eastern europe - I think too late as well, 30 years ago would be be great, now the prices are quite high, maybe Budapest or Prague would be worth looking into ?

Dubai - I think poor quality real estate built by indians, new buildings being bult, new fancy district so the old ones start to devaluate rather quickly

I'd choose south east asia, maybe africa. Ive heard positive feedback about Bankgog, very modern and safe. affordable.

Maybe Ukraine/Russia could be interesting high risk play, I don't know, I wouldn't invest there personally
 
Meta said:






I have some numbers for you. A very nice $130k Tbilisi apartment bought (not by me) last December took couple weeks to find $800/month tenant.



Speaking of another apartment in Tbilisi I was getting 7.3% net in 2023 IIRC, didn't rent out in 2024.

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These are really nice numbers.

How big is the $130k one and was it fully furnished? What's the location?

How did you find it?



One thing to keep in mind is the buying price. So if someone bought a property 5 or 10 years ago he might at the time had 5% yield but as the price of it went up after covid and also the rents so the yield is now higher. Getting close to 10% yield for buying today and renting couple weeks after is amazing!
 
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JimBeam said:






These are really nice numbers.

How big is the $130k one and was it fully furnished? What's the location?

How did you find it?



One thing to keep in mind is the buying price. So if someone bought a property 5 or 10 years ago he might at the time had 5% yield but as the price of it went up after covid and also the rents so the yield is now higher. Getting close to 10% yield for buying today and renting couple weeks after is amazing!

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Thanks. The $130k apartment is about 60 sq.m., fully furnished, fine location (not far from Pekini street if it helps). Found through a real estate agent. But it's not close to 10% I'm afraid, more like ~6% if there are no more vacancies or expenses.



Agree fully that most good returns are seen with those who bought much earlier.
 
flyingadventures662 said:






By the way there is practically zero risk of okupas if you rent rooms.



I have spent a lot of time in Spain and I have met many people from there, both investors and "casual people".



While okupas are risk if you rent the entire property to one person/family that "encapsulates" themselves alone inside, I have asked a lot and I have never ever to this date heard about a single case of okupas if you rent independent rooms to different people who live together in a shared apartment. Also from the experience of the people who manage our apartment and I guess tens of others apartments during many years.



With that being said I'm completely open to what you say and tha's my goal, even if I get a bit lower ROI, I would go somewhre else.



Do you have specific suggestions which come at least close to this ROI numbers?

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That's because you have not researched enough. I know cases where that happens in your situation too. It is less likely, but still happens and there is a risk. They call them (now) "inquiokupas" (inquilino + okupa = tenant + squatter).

But I agree that the safest is to rent separate rooms to students. Their parents pay the rent, and they usually rent during the academic year and then they leave.
 
For what is worth, I have a contact in Dubai that is from East Africa who is knowledgeable of that part of the world (Eritrea, Ethiopia, Djibouti, Kenya, Uganda, Sudan/South Sudan, etc), with whom I've realized good land deals (Kenya), and found some other gems (Uganda). My interest on the region was piqued by him and Ladislaz Maurice (the Wandering investor .com), as the profit potential there is clear to see, but you need to have boots on the ground and someone to follow things up to get the desired results (no sit and wait sort of approach). I wouldn't mind teaming with like-minded people to aim for larger opportunities. I also have started in fixer-uppers in Cambodia through a native local citizen, and the % yield is way above 20% (small amounts, not scalable, one time per property). However, there are land deals that with the proper capital do present exceptional value. I'm above all a numbers guy and the regions mentioned make sense to me (net returns always, worse case scenario in terms of costs and exit prices included). Alas, I can go only as far as my wallet allows, so I'm missing some opportunities, hence my post above. NO SOLICITATION OF ANY KIND! (@JohnLocke @Martin Everson @Sols !!!) , but I believe that it's about time we here at OCT thought about joining forces and doing some sort of a coordinated effort/fund, FFS...I do feel we could do really good things.



NVO
 
Over recent decades, I have been engaged by various entities with vested interests in the real estate sector across diverse international jurisdictions. My experience encompasses markets such as Russia, subsequent to the fall of the Berlin Wall, which precipitated a significant appreciation in real property values, particularly in prominent tourist destinations. It extends to Italy, a market characterized by almost perennial growth; Kenya, a destination highly sought after by European investors owing to its geographical proximity, favorable time zone, and economic viability; and Florida, notably following the collapse of the subprime mortgage bubble. A consistent and overarching factor critical to success in all global locales is the identification and engagement of a partner of demonstrable integrity and reliability. Failure to secure such a partner invariably leads to complications, whereby even an initially promising investment can devolve into an intractable predicament, often resolvable only through divestment, frequently at a considerable undervalue.



At present, I would counsel against investment in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) due to prevailing inflated acquisition prices. Notwithstanding purported guarantees of substantial annual returns, empirical evidence suggests that such projections often fail to materialize, with actual yields more realistically approximating, or potentially falling below, 4% per annum.



The United States market exhibits considerable dynamism and has consistently held my active professional interest. However, a quasi-mandatory prerequisite for investment therein is the establishment of a dedicated corporate entity. While the associated costs are not excessively prohibitive, this structure invariably impacts net profitability and necessitates a significant temporal commitment for the fulfillment of annual statutory obligations (including, inter alia, the management of incurred expenses, engagement of accountancy services, preparation of financial statements, and the remittance of applicable local, state, and federal taxes). Furthermore, in metropolitan areas such as Miami, securing one-bedroom apartments for less than USD 300,000 is increasingly challenging, and ventures into peripheral suburban areas entail heightened investment risk, in addition to being perceived as less desirable.



Russia, the current geopolitical conflict notwithstanding, is progressively manifesting as a jurisdiction with frontier market characteristics, marked by a considerable degree of commercial aggressiveness and a diminished certainty regarding the recognition and enforcement of proprietary rights when contrasted with other regions, such as Europe.



Kenya may present a viable option; however, my disengagement from that particular market spans over a decade, and I am consequently not positioned to furnish contemporaneous, actionable advice.



Turning to Italy, it is acknowledged that the jurisdiction presents certain intrinsic challenges, and the leasing of residential property to family units can, as is widely understood, precipitate difficulties. Nevertheless, certain strategic approaches exist to mitigate such risks (being of partial Italian heritage, I possess an intrinsic familiarity with such matters). Foremost among these is the utilization of short-term lease agreements. A real property asset designated for the temporary rental market, particularly one targeting the high-end segment, effectively circumvents many conventional landlord-tenant issues.

For instance:




A compact apartment leased to university students will typically not be occupied for a continuous term exceeding one year, as students generally vacate the premises during the summer recess to return to their respective family homes.
This demographic frequently benefits from parental guarantors, who are inherently averse to disputes and, most pertinently, formal eviction proceedings.
The incorporation into the lease agreement of a provision establishing a right of access, akin to an easement (in Italian, "servitù"), can secure the landlord's prerogative to enter the premises without encountering undue legal or bureaucratic impediments.
Alternatively, and perhaps more advantageously, is the practice of letting individual rooms to separate tenants. (In Italy, it is not uncommon to encounter advertisements for rooms available "exclusively for female tenants," as this arrangement is perceived to offer greater assurance regarding the diligent maintenance and upkeep of the property). Such an arrangement ensures that any single tenant occupies only a portion of the property, thereby affording significant advantages for the swift and uncomplicated repossession of the entire leased asset, should circumstances so require.

The average rental rate for a student room in a city such as Rome is approximately EUR 500 per month. Consequently, a property comprising three such lettable rooms could command a market valuation in excess of half a million Euros. The identification of properties conforming to these specifications is by no means a facile undertaking, though it is not insurmountable. It necessitates comprehensive market knowledge, astute discernment regarding location and property characteristics, and a methodical search conducted with clearly defined investment parameters to ensure the selection of genuinely compelling opportunities.



Would you require further elaboration on any of these points?
 
Pasqualina said:






Notwithstanding purported guarantees of substantial annual returns, empirical evidence suggests that such projections often fail to materialize, with actual yields more realistically approximating, or potentially falling below, 4% per annum.

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This is complete BS.



People who buy today can expect 5-6% easily. If you buy it during the construction you can expect 6-8% as you'll be buying it at a lower price. If you bought it couple years ago you're already seeing ~8-10% if not more.



Good thing about Dubai market is that you have all the data available online so you can see sale prices for the same building, you can see the rents in that building, you can see how many times unit has been (re)sold and what prices etc. So it's all pretty transparent.



Just check out https://dxbinteract.com, https://propertymonitor.com or at the DLD website.

Even on propertyfinder at the bottom you have the table with prices for sold and rented units in that building.



You can also check the status of any construction in here:

https://dubailand.gov.ae/en/eservices/real-estate-project-status-landing/real-estate-project-status/

(if you don't know any just put word "residence" and press search and you get some "samples")



Property market there is really big and well regulated.
 
Let me share my experience too

I bought 2 flats in Spain 2.5 years ago

Never rented it

Sold it just right now

One flat with 50% roi

Other one 70%

Just by reselling

2.5 years

As well there are some more options to do here

Flipping can give you 25% in 6 months

If you know what you buy and where (city neighbourhood and etc)

If you buy occupied flats and can talk to okupas you will get much more roi

As well I have seen some papers from my friend

He does construction in Spain (he even builds me a house here now), works totally open books with fixed fee for him for the management

Does good quality in comparison with average Spanish constructors even at better price

And as well he does the construction on Bali

Rental roi is around 20% there if you invest and do everything from scratch

Doing this 2.5 year cycle on Bali will give significant roi if you resell then



The main thing on Bali that caught my interest if you have a right person to manage everything there you can never go there and touch banking system

Construction, rentals and reselling all can be done in crypto

They only do aml check of the crypto wallet you will pay from



There are some concerns about the land

But you usually rent this land for a big amount of time let’s say 20 years but you resell it much earlier (let’s say in 3 years) so I don’t see any problem here

In Russia for example there was and is some same things you rent sometimes land for 49 years

So for me it’s not a problem
 
Nicholas Van Orton said:






Yes and No. Being on the case at the moment, and keeping tabs with the market in St Petersburg and Moscow, both on the resale and the new development markets, have just reached a couple of interesting deals with a potential 7% net yield. Nothing to write home about. And believe me, I've done (already) a quite extensive due diligence and spoken to many RE firms thanks to my ability to communicate in the language and various ties to the country. Best options if you have no interest whatsoever in using the property is go for the newly-built small 25-35 sqm studios which offer the best net yield. In my case, as I'm looking at 1-bed at least it is a bit more tricky to get a good deal on new developments, so I'm evaluating the resale market.



That being said, if (and always a big IF) capital appreciation does materialize, that 7% could turn out to be 10-12% annualized in 5 years if/when things settle down geopolitically. But again, that's based on a large assumption I'm not sure everyone's willing to go with.



Hope this helps.



NVO

Click to expand...

Big risks, bad roi, unstable Ruble
 
Decided not to go with Dubai and Tbilisi because of it’s more seasonal thing + a lot of migrated people from Russia escaped from the war, they don’t need to make a lot of visa efforts to live in Dubai and Georgia

As soon as war stops big part of Russian people will leave and come back

And it will surely affect the market in those countries
 
flyingadventures662 said:






Alicante, huge apartment, long-term (non-touristical) room rental for minimum a few months. 400-500 per room so 1400 cca entire apartment.

Click to expand...

Can you really buy real estate in Alicante for just under 100K, or is that something from years ago?
 
vehzag said:






Big risks, bad roi, unstable Ruble

Click to expand...

Never heard something more stupid.



Real estates in russia are cheap because the interest rates are high and because there are no international buyers.

Ruble unstable ?A gold backed currency is unstable ?Seriously ?

Take the loan in EUR or GBP exchange in RUB

Buy in russia real estate and profit from

Renting yearly yield 7-12%

Exchange rate EUR|GBP/RUB which will be also significant expacially when BRICS or China brings out their gold backed/linked currency or when the commodity cycle starts.

ROI from increase of price as when wealth among its citizen raises ,real estate prices also raises

Leverage with debt





The only difficulty is when you are living in western countries how your government will react
 
369 said:






Never heard something more stupid.



Real estates in russia are cheap because the interest rates are high and because there are no international buyers.

Ruble unstable ?A gold backed currency is unstable ?Seriously ?

Take the loan in EUR or GBP exchange in RUB

Buy in russia real estate and profit from

Renting yearly yield 7-12%

Exchange rate EUR|GBP/RUB which will be also significant expacially when BRICS or China brings out their gold backed/linked currency or when the commodity cycle starts.

ROI from increase of price as when wealth among its citizen raises ,real estate prices also raises

Leverage with debt





The only difficulty is when you are living in western countries how your government will react

Click to expand...

Yes it’s unstable

Take a look at the rurusd chart

See the usd value for the flats in Moscow in high timeframes

Usual 1 bedroom apartment in Moscow now costs around 60-70k rubles in terms of rentals. A month. The most liquid type of real estate is 1 bedroom

To buy this flat you will spend 10-15 million

Then you can count

And that would be not the pure roi

And in rubles only

If you are a citizen there u can have more restrictions even to manage your property

Is this the roi you are looking for?

Outside of Moscow market is very unliquid

Have you ever had there a real estate at any time? Tell us your story before calling my words stupid

I lived in Moscow for many years and not only there

Then when you want to resell - you will have to give big discounts

Because many wealthy people left the country, and the mortgage now is insane

Have you seen the %?

People’ salaries grow but not that fast as prices for living

Who will buy it from you when you decide to sell it with such interest rates on the market?

Have you ever in last years tried to sell there any real estate? Because I did, and not only me, part of my family and friends live there still



Please elaborate more on your case before calling someone or someone’s words stupid

Let us know your expertise



And no, rouble is not backed by gold

Russia has some significant amount of gold in the country but it has nothing to do with rouble
 
369 said:






Your current yields are correct however there is one major point which you are missing in the game which makes them so attractive.

The next hyper stagflation event will be a commodity cycle.

Which country is the richest in the world in commodities ?

Which countries currency is linked or backed by Gold ?

Which country is going to sell Gas and Oil for prices at 4 times of current one ?



Its russia and that wealth also will meet its citizens.If citizens get wealthier automaticly the value of local real estate rises.

So i'm not so much interrested in in yields (although they are great if you want to use leverage via debt ) but more interrested in the big spike of real estate prices which when having its run you sell for opportunities in a country which will be highly negativly effected from the hyper stagflation



Also during that time BRICS will have already implemented their new monetary system to be not effected of the western downfall









You can now also add Russia is self sufficient thanks to the longterm sanctions and won't feel the discruption in supply bottleneck

Click to expand...

The question is whether Russians will be allowed to buy anything at all in the near future, or if it might take 5, 10, or even more years before all the turmoil settles down.

Unless, of course, we enter a new world order where Trump, Putin, and Kim Jong-un are running the show, in which case, any investment probably won’t matter much anyway!
 
vehzag said:






Yes it’s unstable

Take a look at the rurusd chart

See the usd value for the flats in Moscow in high timeframes

Usual 1 bedroom apartment in Moscow now costs around 60-70k rubles in terms of rentals. A month. The most liquid type of real estate is 1 bedroom

To buy this flat you will spend 10-15 million

Then you can count

And that would be not the pure roi

And in rubles only

If you are a citizen there u can have more restrictions even to manage your property

Is this the roi you are looking for?

Outside of Moscow market is very unliquid

Have you ever had there a real estate at any time? Tell us your story before calling my words stupid

I lived in Moscow for many years and not only there

Then when you want to resell - you will have to give big discounts

Because many wealthy people left the country, and the mortgage now is insane

Have you seen the %?

People’ salaries grow but not that fast as prices for living

Who will buy it from you when you decide to sell it with such interest rates on the market?

Have you ever in last years tried to sell there any real estate? Because I did, and not only me, part of my family and friends live there still



Please elaborate more on your case before calling someone or someone’s words stupid

Let us know your expertise



And no, rouble is not backed by gold

Russia has some significant amount of gold in the country but it has nothing to do with rouble

Click to expand...

You guys seem very limited.

You only show moscow.

Russia is not only moscow but people in other big citzies which wealth need to catch up with russian major cities.

And no russian ruble is backed by gold.Educate yourself.

Just because you lived in moscow in the past that doesn't make you a good forcaster of prices in rest of russia for real estates.

You understand what a deflationary monetary system is right ?

You understand what will happen with the ruble in a commodity cycle right ?














The question is whether Russians will be allowed to buy anything at all in the near future, or if it might take 5, 10, or even more years before all the turmoil settles down.

Unless, of course, we enter a new world order where Trump, Putin, and Kim Jong-un are running the show, in which case, any investment probably won’t matter much anyway!

Click to expand...

They can buy anything they want outside of western countries which in the future are even uninterresting.

I focus on BRICS and there is no problem.
 
369 said:






You guys seem very limited.

You only show moscow.

Russia is not only moscow but people in other big citzies which wealth need to catch up with russian major cities.

And no russian ruble is backed by gold.Educate yourself.

Just because you lived in moscow in the past that doesn't make you a good forcaster of prices in rest of russia for real estates.

You understand what a deflationary monetary system is right ?

You understand what will happen with the ruble in a commodity cycle right ?







They can buy anything they want outside of western countries which in the future are even uninterresting.

I focus on BRICS and there is no problem.

Click to expand...

I lived in many cities there not only Moscow

My family doesn’t live in Moscow

In just a regular average city

But I don’t mind you having your own truth

Just be polite here, you don’t even know who are you talking to but throwing frases like ‘haven’t heard smth more stupid’ or ‘educate yourself’ doesn’t give you additional credit of expertise



And still no, rouble is not backed by gold, neither btc (unfortunately )

There is no gold standard in Russia
 
Aren't most real estate investments in "legacy countries" doomed to fail in the long run, because of their demographic decline, which affects both appreciation and cashflow (reduced demand, what leads to declining rents and vacancies)?
 
OffshoreDude said:






Aren't most real estate investments in "legacy countries" doomed to fail in the long run, because of their demographic decline, which affects both appreciation and cashflow (reduced demand, what leads to declining rents and vacancies)?

Click to expand...

Yeah, demographics will have a huge impact on real estate. One can already see this in countries that are ahead of the curve in the decline like Japan. There, houses on the countryside are remarkably cheap, and sometimes left abandoned. Tokyo is still holding up pretty well though.



I think attractive cities, and other places people want to move to like beach/lake/mountain towns will not notice much of the demographic decline, whereas it can be dramatic elsewhere. I think millionaires migrating patterns will matter a lot too, real estate in places receiving millionaires will still do fine. For 2024 places receiving millionaires were: UAE, Singapore, US, Canada, Switzerland, Australia, Italy, Portugal, Greece. Lots of legacy countries in there actually.
 
OffshoreDude said:






Aren't most real estate investments in "legacy countries" doomed to fail in the long run, because of their demographic decline, which affects both appreciation and cashflow (reduced demand, what leads to declining rents and vacancies)?

Click to expand...

RE would be long down as demographic grow is dramaticly if not artificially pumped via immigration.
 
vehzag said:






I lived in many cities there not only Moscow

My family doesn’t live in Moscow

In just a regular average city

But I don’t mind you having your own truth

Just be polite here, you don’t even know who are you talking to but throwing frases like ‘haven’t heard smth more stupid’ or ‘educate yourself’ doesn’t give you additional credit of expertise



And still no, rouble is not backed by gold, neither btc (unfortunately )

There is no gold standard in Russia

Click to expand...

If you don't understand monetary system i simple call it you don't understand it



Here a nice article for you so maybe you can catch up a bit what is going on expacially as you lived in moscow and your family in average cities.



https://www.birchgold.com/blog/news/russia-gold-standard/
 
What about Japan?



Does anybody know how is the market, especially for short term rentals (airbnb) since tourism is booming like never before?
 
Armani said:






Does anybody know how is the market, especially for short term rentals (airbnb) since tourism is booming like never before?

Click to expand...



In my opinion, every short-term rental venture anywhere is in constant danger of sudden regulation that hinders or even prohibit such activities, or make it unprofitable with special taxes or state fees.
 
dany said:






What do you mean ?

Click to expand...

As I explained above

If you know how to deal with okupas and find the occupied flat at very low price

You can negotiate with okupas the conditions that they are ready to move out with

And then close the deal with potential seller of such property
 
369 said:






You won't like the answer but #1 in real estate currently in my eyes is Russia

Click to expand...

How do you invest in Russian Real Estate now a days if you don't live there and as long as the world looks like it does?
 
vehzag said:






As I explained above

If you know how to deal with okupas and find the occupied flat at very low price

You can negotiate with okupas the conditions that they are ready to move out with

And then close the deal with potential seller of such property

Click to expand...

It’s corrupt and criminal that they’re exploiting other people’s investments for their own gain!
 
Nicholas Van Orton said:






For what is worth, I have a contact in Dubai that is from East Africa who is knowledgeable of that part of the world (Eritrea, Ethiopia, Djibouti, Kenya, Uganda, Sudan/South Sudan, etc), with whom I've realized good land deals (Kenya), and found some other gems (Uganda). My interest on the region was piqued by him and Ladislaz Maurice (the Wandering investor .com), as the profit potential there is clear to see, but you need to have boots on the ground and someone to follow things up to get the desired results (no sit and wait sort of approach). I wouldn't mind teaming with like-minded people to aim for larger opportunities. I also have started in fixer-uppers in Cambodia through a native local citizen, and the % yield is way above 20% (small amounts, not scalable, one time per property). However, there are land deals that with the proper capital do present exceptional value. I'm above all a numbers guy and the regions mentioned make sense to me (net returns always, worse case scenario in terms of costs and exit prices included). Alas, I can go only as far as my wallet allows, so I'm missing some opportunities, hence my post above. NO SOLICITATION OF ANY KIND! (@JohnLocke @Martin Everson @Sols !!!) , but I believe that it's about time we here at OCT thought about joining forces and doing some sort of a coordinated effort/fund, FFS...I do feel we could do really good things.



NVO

Click to expand...

Seconded. I'd be interested.
 
What are the downsides to investing in an apartment in Bangkok? There are two business districts in the city center, where you can buy a good studio apartment or even something bigger for $200-300k and rent it out through an agency on a long-term basis to bank managers, insurance companies workers, etc., working nearby. I think real estate prices in Bangkok will grow slightly, but from year to year, as Asia is developing, and Bangkok is already an excellent business center, not like Singapore, but still. You can easily get 4-5% per annum after all spends. Yes, it's not much, but considering the cost of housing, it would suit me just fine. What are the pitfalls here? Also, if you will live in Thailand, you will need to pay taxes from this 'inhouse' income I guess?
 
Dreamy said:






What are the downsides to investing in an apartment in Bangkok? There are two business districts in the city center, where you can buy a good studio apartment or even something bigger for $200-300k and rent it out through an agency on a long-term basis to bank managers, insurance companies workers, etc., working nearby. I think real estate prices in Bangkok will grow slightly, but from year to year, as Asia is developing, and Bangkok is already an excellent business center, not like Singapore, but still. You can easily get 4-5% per annum after all spends. Yes, it's not much, but considering the cost of housing, it would suit me just fine. What are the pitfalls here? Also, if you will live in Thailand, you will need to pay taxes from this 'inhouse' income I guess?

Click to expand...

  • It's more like 3-4% at best usually
  • It will take some effort to find a good property manager (doable though)
  • It will take some effort to buy. People are not exactly business-minded. If you find a good deal and agree in principle, they may decide to cancel and relist later at higher price - happened to me twice recently. Extremely annoying
  • Market is weird overall. People prefer to be in market selling literally for years over lowering price. This thing gonna burst one day (probably not soon)
  • Quality of buildings may be low. Pay attention to this, otherwise it will be (even more) difficult to sell later

Yes, you need to pay taxes on rent income, but actually most people don't. Some get lucky reselling condos - I've seen people buy off plan, sell after completion with +50% or more in couple years. It is what I said though, luck. Many people can't sell such off plan condos without taking loss. $200-300k is way more than enough for studio if you are not looking at top-luxury buildings. It's price of a small 2-bedroom.



Good luck.
 
Dreamy said:






What are the downsides to investing in an apartment in Bangkok? There are two business districts in the city center, where you can buy a good studio apartment or even something bigger for $200-300k and rent it out through an agency on a long-term basis to bank managers, insurance companies workers, etc., working nearby. I think real estate prices in Bangkok will grow slightly, but from year to year, as Asia is developing, and Bangkok is already an excellent business center, not like Singapore, but still. You can easily get 4-5% per annum after all spends. Yes, it's not much, but considering the cost of housing, it would suit me just fine. What are the pitfalls here? Also, if you will live in Thailand, you will need to pay taxes from this 'inhouse' income I guess?

Click to expand...

Oversupply, and people like to live in new places, not in old apartment blocks.



Especially now after the earthquake, where many buildings got damages (structural and cosmetic) there might be a lot of changes in the market.

No one trust the inspectors, and people are a bit worried.



On the other hand, there are many positive changes.



People from more countries than ever can visit Thailand visa-free now.

There have been between 10,000-40,000 5-year-valid DTV visas issued as of Nov. 2024, I guess more than 120,000 as of now.

The rents are already rising, and it's a huge change for Thailand.
 
flyingadventures662 said:






I've put 100K in a property in Spain 2 years ago and currently every month I get roughly 900 EUR pure net income after all taxes and expenses.

Click to expand...

Where did you by the property in Spain ? and how do you get that money ?
 
Dreamy said:






What are the downsides to investing in an apartment in Bangkok? There are two business districts in the city center, where you can buy a good studio apartment or even something bigger for $200-300k and rent it out through an agency on a long-term basis to bank managers, insurance companies workers, etc., working nearby. I think real estate prices in Bangkok will grow slightly, but from year to year, as Asia is developing, and Bangkok is already an excellent business center, not like Singapore, but still. You can easily get 4-5% per annum after all spends. Yes, it's not much, but considering the cost of housing, it would suit me just fine. What are the pitfalls here? Also, if you will live in Thailand, you will need to pay taxes from this 'inhouse' income I guess?

Click to expand...



I agree with the responses from the other two OCT members.



For the long term, you’re likely looking at returns of around 3%, 3.5%, maybe 4%,or even less if you declare your rental income there. The market is oversupplied, and don’t forget the earthquake that hit Bangkok less than three months ago...



Without the ability to get a mortgage, I find it hard to see the point of buying in Bangkok, UNLESS you plan to live there and want a property that perfectly suits your tastes… or if you’re aiming for the 10-year LTR visa as a 'wealthy global citizen'. But for that, you need to invest at least $500K and prove at least $1M in liquid assets, whether in or outside of Thailand.
 
flyingadventures662 said:






I've put 100K in a property in Spain 2 years ago and currently every month I get roughly 900 EUR pure net income after all taxes and expenses.



I'm very happy with the numbers and % rentability of this investment but very unhappy with some things related to Spain and the customer service I get for the management. (No okupas problem, we rent rooms so the money flow is quite stable and really no issues with that).



I'm looking to make a similar investment but in another country where I like generally the things more.



I know it's hard to achieve that ROI, or slightly worse ROI on the expense of getting excellent service.



But from my research if possible anywhere, I could see Batumi in Georgia, Dubai, or probably Cyprus.



I have zero experience in these countries so I'd appreciate if anyone has personal experience or at least has done some research and can quote precise numbers, and suggest contacts for local management. Or of course, suggestions for other countries.



Many thanks.

Click to expand...



What about Delaware - USA? 2 years ago I purchased and sold a house there. Cost of the house was around 70K and monthly rental income was about 400-450 USD - net After insurance. And everyhing is settled in the USA. There are lots of professional property managers in USA. Better than anywhere in the world. And - there is an insurance for house . If your property becomes vacant - the insurance pays the rent when the real estate vacant. Also disaster insurance. Tax? That's why you are here. People will help you here. And if you find a Real Estate in delaware better price you will earn when you purchase with a bargain deal.
 
toums said:






I agree with the responses from the other two OCT members.



For the long term, you’re likely looking at returns of around 3%, 3.5%, maybe 4%,or even less if you declare your rental income there. The market is oversupplied, and don’t forget the earthquake that hit Bangkok less than three months ago...



Without the ability to get a mortgage, I find it hard to see the point of buying in Bangkok, UNLESS you plan to live there and want a property that perfectly suits your tastes… or if you’re aiming for the 10-year LTR visa as a 'wealthy global citizen'. But for that, you need to invest at least $500K and prove at least $1M in liquid assets, whether in or outside of Thailand.

Click to expand...

The goal is not to live, but to diversify, for example, buying real estate in Europe is not particularly interesting if you already have it, the US-Canada is difficult, expensive, and even there you can quite successfully own REITs, Africa is quite exotic and not attractive, but Asia should be good for diversification. 4% net is quite enough for me, considering the prospects for asset growth in a megalopolis like Bangkok. I would consider Singapore, but I think it is much more expensive there.
 
deraty said:






What about Delaware - USA? 2 years ago I purchased and sold a house there. Cost of the house was around 70K and monthly rental income was about 400-450 USD - net After insurance. And everyhing is settled in the USA. There are lots of professional property managers in USA. Better than anywhere in the world. And - there is an insurance for house . If your property becomes vacant - the insurance pays the rent when the real estate vacant. Also disaster insurance. Tax? That's why you are here. People will help you here. And if you find a Real Estate in delaware better price you will earn when you purchase with a bargain deal.

Click to expand...

Yes, but you have to go there for that. You can't do everything remotely. Plus you have to open a bank account in the US, which is not easy. And with amounts up to 300k, I still don't think there's much point in going there.
 
You do not need to visit USA for purchasing a real estate in Deleware. And you do not need a bank account in USA.



If you have a property manager familiar with your country they will purchase the house on behalf of you and involve with incoming and outgoing money. You also do not need to have a bank account in USA.



I purchased and sold my Delaware home without visiting USA and without a USA bank account. My property manager is in the same country with me and sent money without a swift fee.



My property manager was reliable.
 
deraty said:






My property manager is in the same country with me and sent money without a swift fee.

Click to expand...

useful to know, what country are you located?
 
Yeah, the rules and options are a bit different in Turkey, at least if you're a Turkish citizen.
 
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